I was messing around last night looking at web pages and came across Heaventruth.org. If you would please check it out and get back to me. The part that struck me as odd. Scroll down towards the bottom of the page. You will find were it has the seven truths to look for in finding a good church to attend and serve. I honestly believed most of what this page was saying to me until I reached these 7 truths.
7. People that have been redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ can never lose their salvation.
So my question for you today is. Can we lose our salvation? Give me some feedback here people. I want to know your thoughts. I personally believe that I have the right answer to this, along with some scripture to back this up. But instead of putting my foot in my mouth too soon, I want your insight.
6 comments:
Great question; yet very challenging. Very smart people on both sides of the argument believe they have the right answer to this question. There are scriptures that seemingly will prove one point or the other. The great thing is, there is a right answer to this; either people are eternally secure or they are not - one day we will find out.
This is a huge subject with lots of different angles to it. It boils down to where people lean regarding, Arminianism & Calvanism.
On the side of eternal security, generally Calvanists, will say that if a person leaves the faith, or seems to lose their salvation, that the individual was never saved to begin with. They were a "nominal Christian", or a Christian in name only - that was me for many years.
Here is a quote from John Piper that sums this up well, “A transaction with Jesus in the past that has no ongoing expression in our lives was a false transaction. When Jesus said, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples” (John 8:31), he meant that if we don’t abide, we are not truly his disciples. And the opposite of true disciples is false disciples. That’s what we are if we count on past experiences without ongoing devotion to Jesus...“ We are not idle in the battle to abide in Jesus. But in the end the battle is assured because it does not depend finally on us. Jesus wins. No one can snatch us out of His hand. He and his Father are greater than all. Therefore, his demand that we abide in him is that we keep trusting the one who keeps us trusting.”
Here is a list of some of the verses that Calvanists would use to support their position of the preservation of the saints: John 5:24 6:37; 10:27-29, Jude 1:24, Phil. 1:6, Rom. 8:9-10; 33-39, Eph 1:13-14, among others.
At the same time there are verses that seem to point toward the ability for someone to lose their salvation: Luke 8:13, John 15:2,5-6, Gal. 5:4, 1 John 3:6, Heb 6:4-6, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:16-18, 2 John 8-9, among others.
Both sides of the argument would need to have a good response to any of these verses.
I've been on both sides of this fence. I was raised Arminian but recently have been studying a bit more and questioning some of the things I was taught to believe. Today I fall more in the Calvanist camp and lean toward the belief that if one is truly saved they are secure in Christ; to willful "walk away from Christ" would merely reveal the fact they never belonged to Him in first place.
I don't think you can stick your foot in your mouth on this subject; like I said, there are wise people in both camps and they agree to disagree.
I'm looking forward to reading how others respond to this challenging question.
This is Steve Sorensen...
"Once saved, always saved...so long as you remain saved." That's my saying!
Romans 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or sword? ... I am convinced that neither death nor life, nor angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else increation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Nothing, absolutely nothing can tear me away from Jesus. But note it does not say that of my own will I could walk away from the salvation I once professed to accept.
Now I do believe in predestination for those who accept the free gift of life in Christ. But I believe predestination does not begin at the point where "I must accept Christ", but at the point where God knows in advance who it is that will be faith accept the gift of the Savior. Romans 8:29-30 "For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, he also called; those He called, He also justified, those He justified, He also glorified."
God does not choose to save some and choose to save others by determining for them what choice they make in Jesus. If He had His will and way, the Bible tells us "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come unto repentence."
I would like to agree with this with the exception of people who say they ask for god into there hearts then go back to there old ways. But I do believe that God loves everyone. Dose that make any sence.
I agree, we can walk away from Jesus after we have accepted Him. However, I am of the opinion that once a person has had a personal experience with Him that they are very unlikely to walk away. Then the question is raised, were they really saved in the first place? I feel, only the Lord is the one who can answer that question. Even though we cannot judge another person, scripture says we will know them by their fruit.
Two scriptures that come to mind are Matt.7:20-23 Amp.
Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name and driven out demons in your name and done many mighty works in your name?
And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from me, you who act wickedly (disregarding My commands). This scripture denotes that there needs to be a relationship, and there can be no relationship without communication. And obedience to the Word.
1Peter 4:18 Amp.
And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked?
I have fallen away from the Lord, and I never really knew Him to begin with. I was calling myself a Christian in name only. I later learned that Christian means Christ-like. I love the various experiences that I have had with the Savior. I keep seeking Him because I love His presence so much. He has always kept my hunger for Him alive no matter how far I have strayed.
John 15:7 KJV
If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
RCrotty,
Are you agreeing that one cannot lose their salvation with the exception of those who may have just said a prayer with their lips and not their hearts and actually never belonged to God in the first place?
Or are you speaking of people who sincerely asked the Lord into their hearts and fell into temptation and have backsliden?
I've been on a mission looking for a clear cut Word from God saying Yes we can lose our salvation or No we can't lose our salvation. There doesn't seem to be any defining scripture.
I first was leaning on a definite yes we can and then later thought no we can't. Only to hear stories of people who have been saved, born again, and walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and willfuly denied Christ later in life. But knowing the Lord is all knowing and He knew this person would reject Him later in life confuses me as to why He would grant someone such gifts.
All in all I'm having a hard time wraping my small mind around this whole subject.
Kris,
I like that John Piper quote. That does sum up a lot of what I would like to say on this subject.
Clearly, either we belong to Him or we do not. We are faithful or we are not. We abide in Him and His Word or we do not. We are luke warm or red hot. We either fully believe(trust in) in Him and are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise or not(Eph. 1:13).
I did come across a certain scripture that I have been meditating on for some time. Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." Note the "if possible." Now is this saying if this were even possible at all or if we make it possible or....you fill in the blank?
Steve,
I like your saying..."Once saved, always saved...so long as you remain saved." I think I might bring this discussion up at our bible studies. Sometimes we have deep discussions and I think this would be a good one to get people thinking. We have discussed what it would take to seperate us from Christ. Of course we all say nothing can seperate us from Christ but when we really dig down deep in our spirits is there something there. Something so tramatic that would make us reject or deny Christ like Peter did.
One thing I do know is that my sins are forgiven past, present, and future. The price was paid and I have entered through that door that Jesus opened up so long ago. I am filled with the Holy Ghost. I know this because I cannot enjoy sin like I used to. He just won't let me.
Great comments guys I loved it. Keep em coming people.
Boy you always make me think. I guess I was talking about when they say they except god in there hearts but not excepting them in there hearts.
But you got me thinking that if God knows that you will reject him why would he grant people wounderful gifts.
All I know is that I love God and I never will reject him. But boy you really like to make people think don't you?
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